Resonating with Bison Bone's Courtney Whitehead: Exploring the New 40 Grit EP - S04E02

In this podcast episode, Courtney Whitehead, a talented musician from Denver, Colorado, shares valuable insights into his journey as a songwriter and vocalist. He discusses his growth as an artist, emphasizing the importance of connecting with the audience through one's voice. Courtney reflects on his proudest work, the EP "40 Grit," which he designed with an acoustic and introspective feel, creating a deeper connection between his music and the listener.

Throughout the episode, Courtney delves into the significance of the album title, "40 Grit," as both a reference to sandpaper and a metaphor for the effort needed to mend various aspects of life. He explores the themes in the final track, "It's All the Same," which touches on personal health challenges and the broader concept of life's hardships. The conversation also covers pre-show rituals, gratitude for fans, and the thrill of potentially opening for artists like John Prine or Tom Petty. Courtney's genuine and heartfelt approach to music shines through, making this podcast episode a must-listen for fans and aspiring musicians alike.

Bison Bone
http://www.bisonbone.com/

Ian Jimeno
https://www.instagram.com/ian.realestateagent/

Transcript

0:23

Hey, this is Courtney Whitehead of Bison Bone. You are listening to the Big Locals Podcast and, uh, an instrument I would like to learn how to play that I don't already, um, would be the banjo. Okay, I feel like, uh, you have some banjos already in some of your musical, yeah? I mean, they have some, uh, bandmates that have been recording on your previous songs with banjo in it already, Dobro, um, dobro, pedal steel, um, but not much, not really anything mandolin or banjo, uh, specific. So keys, organ, uh, Wurlitzer, um, Drums, a lot of electric guitars, acoustic guitars, um, pedal steel, slide, a lot of that thing. But the closest would probably be, uh, Dobro on, um, that recent single we just put out that's coming off the upcoming record. Love it! And I'll be honest with you, uh, Courtney, I don't know half of the words he just said. So I'm excited to look, to listen more fine tuned into the album and be like, Okay, that might be what he's talking about in the album. Sure, yeah. I mean, you don't have to know any of it. You don't have to know the lexicon. You just hopefully like it and can move to it and connect with it. That's right. And I'm really excited to go through the EP with you, man. Uh, I know it's been a long time coming. We've been rooting for each other for like a couple of years now. And I forgot how I first heard about you, to be honest. But nonetheless, we are here now. We're connected and we got to hear more of your story, man. So, um, but before we start with the music part, um, whenever I see pictures of you, either on Instagram or wherever it might be, you're often seen with like. food on the table. You love your food. You love your barbecue. I'm glad you bring this up. Yeah so I can definitely respect that. But, uh, I was wondering if you wanted to give a couple shout outs around Denver or maybe back in Oklahoma. Um, enough to bring the local scene up a little bit, you know, Yeah, I can just keep it to Denver because outside of Denver with either playing shows or Just traveling. I love trying new food, but and that could be a whole podcast on its own but Denver my the favorite my favorite burger I've ever had is this little pop up out of outside of a Finn's Meaner and Rhino called Twan's burger and I absolutely love that smash burger style But yeah, it's I still haven't found one that can beat that yet Oh my gosh, I am so glad you brought up Twan's Burger because I had it for the first time. I think it was when I first started this podcast too. It was a small little pop up and they just smashed that burger and then the crispy ends of it are amazing. whole thing is a, barbecue. whole thing's a crispy end. It's just so, it's so crispy and so flat that, yeah, there's like no real middle to it. It's great. It really is. And then it paired up with the cheese, with the, uh, the buns as well. I don't even know what kind of, it might be like brioche or something like that, but nonetheless, I'm a little sauce, pickles. Yeah, it's, it's great. Yeah. Fantastic. Twan, big shout out to you, man. Uh, hope you're doing well. I haven't talked to him in a while, but, uh, appreciate you saying that, man. Uh, what about barbecue spots? I know you're a barbecue guy. Do you know anything around town that you would want to give a shout out to? Yeah, um, I do. Um, one of them would be, uh, Pit Fiend, um, which is also the same area over there. It, it used to be Owlbear and it's great, but the owner of Owlbear, Owlbear essentially retired and gave it over to, um, a couple people that worked under him. So, that's a, that's definitely a good one for sure. it's funny you bring that one, that one up too, because I literally tried it for the first time a couple weeks ago and it's right next to my other friends our mutual friend, Brewery. mutual friend? That's it. Yes. Um, great pairing. And I had no idea that it was also like Dungeons and Dragons related too. So I love the theme behind it all too. I love it. Yeah, and then on this side of town in Baker there's a brewery called Bandit Oak and they always have a really good food barbecue food truck called Barbosa's. And it's kind of Texas and New Orleans style, like South Texas, New Orleans style. And it is great too. I really love it. And I probably actually eat it more because this is, it's close to my neighborhood in the Baker neighborhood. But it's, it's real good. Yeah. Having it so close to you, oh is. It is. So I last heard you on the, uh, Mile High Stash and the host, really good host, he definitely knows his music, as do you, and I had to look up a lot of these people that you guys were talking about and I was like, wow, like there's a whole nother world that I had no idea existed. And during that interview, especially in the beginning of it, he called you one of his favorite. Oakies and I had no idea what that was. Apparently it's a thing, but, uh, I, I think I know what it means now. But you mind clarifying what an okie is? It's just an Oklahoman and yeah, I think it just goes back. I don't know where it comes from, but it's just a, you know, a shortened version of it. But it feels good. It sounds good. The first time I ever heard it as a young person was my dad was a, you know, growing up. As an Okie, my dad was a pretty big Lynyrd Skynyrd fan, like I'm sure a lot of our parents were. But there's a live record where one of the guys in his band, the piano player, was from Oklahoma, and he's introducing him in one of the songs, and he says, Better be careful, I'll sic an Okie on ya. And that was the first time I had heard it. But, and then, uh, J. J. Cale is an artist from Oklahoma, and he has a record called Okie. Yes. I mean, now that I know the culture is in there and it almost makes sounds or it makes it look like, um, an okie is almost like an aggressive term for an Oklahoman when you put it that, like, I think there's a lot of pride with it, for sure. I think you say it with, you know, you say it with, uh, you say it with your chest. It's something to be proud of. Yeah, I mean, I think that part of the country, there's a lot of duality, right? There's a lot that they That I don't agree with, but, um, there's a lot that I do agree with and, um, or come from that ethos. Um, so, uh, yeah, well, food being one of'em, there's some good food down there. Oh yeah, 100%. And, uh, whenever I go through Tulsa, uh, especially it, what would you consider Oklahoma? I mean, is it the South? Is it like Midwest? What do you consider Oklahoma? It, that's a tough one. And I, I think that's part of the pride is that, um, it's, it's, it could be the Midwest and it could be the South. I think if you ask people that, are from there that don't maybe travel much. They're, they're probably going to say southern because that's where their ideology probably lays, but I feel like it has a very Midwest ethos. I feel like Tulsa is a perfect example of a Midwest city. I, I really, that, it feels very Midwest to me, but more of the rural areas in Oklahoma. They're probably feel like they're, they're a little more on the southern edge of things and they're probably, um, might not appreciate being Midwest, but I think both are great for different reasons. Yeah, Yeah. And I feel like that you, you bring out that Southern rock. That classic rock feel. I mean, you mentioned Lynyrd Skynyrd. I mean, I feel like you almost grew up with Lynyrd Skynyrd as well. And, and especially in your first full length album, you really hit that. It's almost like that first album, especially the first two songs, it felt more like you were going into a country bar, ready to line dance, you know, so energetic. So it almost like you have to move with the music, you know, I feel like it was more. Rock than folk, in my opinion, but I absolutely love that first album too. And maybe even before talking about that, like, how did you even get to the Denver area? And maybe we can expand on that with that first full length album. And then going on from there to what you're doing now with 40 grit. the, um, I came to Denver because I lived in a rural area of Oklahoma and Oklahoma City has come a long way, but that's been just recently. I grew up two hours north of Dallas and so it was kind of I didn't have a lot of options of moving to what big city I was going to move to. And at the time Denver was super affordable and still fairly small and and before a lot of its growth. So I came out here because of the music scene. I knew there was bands coming out of here and I knew it was kind of You know, they with Red Rocks and a lot of the outdoor stuff, I thought it would be a good place for a roots rock band, which is kind of what I do. Um, but also wasn't too big of a city for me, coming from a smaller area. Uh, so that's kind of how I, I landed here. Um, I did make a quick pit stop in Dallas for a couple years, but I just didn't fit my style too much. Maybe Austin would've been better or something. Southern down there, but North Texas didn't really quite fit, but Denver's been great to me. I've been out here for 12 years now but I don't really feel like I got my I got really my feet under me till probably 2017 and And that was more even as a live band. I don't think I really figured out how to make a good record until that record you're talking about till, uh, 2020. Um, and that was when I started getting my legs under me. But even that, that was done and put out during COVID. So, you win some, you lose some. Alright, when you say, uh, make a good record, what do you mean by that? Like certain layers, the audio production, engineering? I think if I could speak for myself, it would be how, like, I could write good songs and we could play good shows in that way. But, To write a good enough song that people would want to listen to in their kitchen while they're cooking, or while they're driving, or, you know, um, or at work, or whatever, commuting, any of those things, it, it needs to be something that they connect They can connect to well enough that they want to revisit that connection a lot of times. A live show is great. It's a time and a place and you're having fun and I feel like we could pull that off but to really go in and make something that people want to listen to at In the morning while they're having their coffee or by themselves or on a walk or whatever. That's that's a different creative perspective Yeah. And how does, how has living in the front range, I mean, Denver in general, right? Um, how has that really affected your songwriting? I assume that maybe you're still making music, writing lyrics back in Oklahoma, but do you feel like that has changed a little bit now that you've moved to the Denver area? It's a good question. I don't know if there's any way to quantify it. I don't think I look at it. There's not specific Colorado landscapes or sonic ideas that I'm getting from this area. I think this is just where I've become an adult and gained some awareness as a human and so that will probably come out in my My lyrics and the way I emote things, but I don't know how much being in Denver specifically has besides just wanting to Have respect of my peers hopefully inspire my peers and what I'm doing and be inspired by my peers by what I'm doing So that may be more than anything Yeah, and you've been in the music industry here in the Denver area for a while now and seeing, I mean, I know your first, uh, show to open up the EP Forty Grids is over at Skylark and I'm sure that area of like Rhino and just Denver in general has seen some crazy Yeah. Yeah. Cosmetic and developments in general. Is there anything in specific that you're just most astounded by in just in Denver or, um, maybe the scene as well. The music scene, has that changed much for you? That's changed a ton and I think that could probably be a longer conversation, but I'm in here in the Baker neighborhood where is the South Broadway, Skylark and High Dive and all those independent venues are and it's, it's changed, but I feel like it's one of the last neighborhoods to kind of really, uh, change into something that it wasn't before. It's always kind of been where the music scene has been here, especially the independent music scene and artists. Um, some great coffee shops and food over here. But when I first moved here, that Rhino area was just warehouses and breweries. Uh, it, yeah, there's so much of it that's changed so much. I can't even put it into words. The biggest thing being the cost here is, Oh yeah. I honestly can't and I've only been here like I said for 12 years and started My first show here was 2014. I want to say So it's been a minute, but I can't believe how expensive it is here Yeah. And, uh, me as a real estate agent, I can completely agree with you. I mean, just looking at old statistics, seeing where, uh, a lot of my first time home buyers, uh, that are either moving from out of state to here, uh, or people that have been renting for a hell of a long time. And then all of a sudden they're like, Wow, I waited for the perfect moment and here I am and it's like double the amount of rent or the double the amount of money than if I were to rent. So um, yeah, I can definitely attest to that. It's kind of a shame. It is a shame and it's not just the rent or mortgage it's people's leases, so Uh, to go out and eat and have some good food or a cocktail or whatever that it can get really expensive as well, but it's not just Denver. It's, it's happening everywhere. I mean, Denver's tougher because it's smaller, um, in some ways, but, uh, we're trying to navigate it. I agree, man. Uh, it's funny how diplomatic you're keeping it. For now, really good at We're, we'll see how deep we get into this. I respect that, man. But going back to the music scene, I know with, um, find your way to find your way out EP versus the EP 40 grit and you're coming out late October. What advice would you give, if any, To the find your way Courtney versus the 40 grit Courtney that you are right now Uh, I mean, so that came out in 2020. This is going to come out in 2023, so three years, but a lot's happened since then. Um, one economically, which we've talked about, and that one being an LP, you know, we put that one on vinyl, Find Your Way Out. That was nine songs. This EP is only five songs, and that, that has something to do with the music industry as a people. Um, I like putting stuff on vinyl. I like doing the packaging. But, unless you're a really huge act, you're probably not going to be selling 10, 000 of those and people probably might not be even listening to songs seven, eight, or nine, or if they do, everything's about playlists now. And so I just thought, let's focus on five songs and try to make, uh, Treat each one of them like maybe they're a single and not have any that are like stepchildren in this thing and Just really focus on that. But I think each process you learn so much from the process and you can take that into the next Project and be able to put that into practice. And so I think I learned a lot about Find your way out just about how to be You learn everything, right? Your process of a songwriter, as a performer, as a singer, how to approach things, how to prepare yourself, how to take care of yourself, but also what you're doing actually in the studio and how that works and those certain tools. Yeah, it's funny you bring up the music industry and talking about playlists versus how you would like to, um, release music through LPs, albums, even CDs, you know, like that is a thing of the past now. It's funny how vinyls have stood the test of time now and have made more sales than CDs or whatever, MP3s even, because now it's all streaming. Like it's all Spotify, iTunes, things like that, SoundCloud. And here you are trying to keep that old feel alive with the vinyls. And I recently got into records and record players and things like that. How do you feel about the 21st century in terms of the music industry and how people are being discovered? Um, has that changed your marketing at all? Or I guess what's your overall feel of the 21st century music industry? It's tough because you want to always try to come from a place of Gratitude and appreciation, the fact that I still get to do this, that people still buy my music, listen to my music, come to shows, all of those things. And I'm, yeah, I'm very appreciative of that. But, and you also don't want to sound like you're the old man and, you know, get off my lawn type of person. I, and also I don't really know enough about any of it to like speak on it too much, but I like. I just like older things in general, you know. I like old guitars and I like record players and and a lot of my boots or hats I've had for a long time and and I have a jacket from the early 80s that I still wear pretty often and I do like all that stuff and that is part of an ideology but everything needs to be needs to progress in some way and there's good and bad about all of it, you know. We can make a record and put it out easier than you could before because you can just throw it on, you know, streaming and I think that has its place. I do worry or am nervous even with my own attention span sometimes. I will listen to a full record on vinyl and but if it's on digital streaming. There may be a handful of records that come out that year that I listen to the full record or listen to it multiple times through the full record and there are definitely some and and I still like to do that but when do you have the time to do that? When are you doing that? That's hard to do when you're commuting or you're going to your day job or working out or cooking or whatever. So I think the attention span thing does make me a tad nervous and I don't really like it's I used to be, um, I used to like Instagram, okay, because it was just pictures and I kind of liked that medium. I liked photographs, but now all that's kind of changed too, and the reels, and really like how do you get people's attention, and so that kind of thing has changed, but I did like photography in that way, Mm hmm. And everyone looked like a photographer just with like the swipe of a filter. sure, but so what, you know, I don't mind that, you know. Yeah, it made me look good. Shoot. I mean, I'll take Right, right. I mean, they still can tell a story, right? If they're, I mean, take out the filters or the capabilities of it, but just the picture alone, depending on what you're doing, you know. Um, it could still show, it's still creative in this way. I don't know. how creative some of this stuff is nowadays, and obviously we all need our validation and that definitely can fulfill that for a short moment. Hmm. Yeah. That's a really good point. Going back to what you were talking about on keeping old things and having Things last a long time. Maybe it's a feeling of... Nostalgia. Maybe it's more of, I don't need to buy anymore because why waste and having to replace it with something new when the old one is perfectly fine. Is there a certain mentality that you can attribute that to? Maybe it's how you grew up or just having that respect for things that were built back in the day. You know, refrigerators aren't working like they did back in the 80s, that sort of thing. Is there anything you can attribute that feeling to or philosophy? I think that's a great question. I think I really like, there's some interior design in houses that are very modern that I like. And I think if it's done well and executed well, I can get behind that. And I don't really like nostalgia for nostalgia's sake. I think that a lot of things people are nostalgic about aren't healthy and are really regressive. And so I really don't get behind that idea. I mean, but there's natural feelings of like, nostalgia. I think, you know, the fall's just starting and that always feels like a season full of nostalgia, right? In healthy ways. I think some of it is, uh, just Um, maybe being, maybe my just own style and taste. I like the way some things, some older things feel and look, and the way that I connect with them. It might just be more of a connection thing with me personally, and I do like things that last longer. And, um. Um, stylistically speaking, those things, um, leather boots, things like that just fit my, my ethos a little bit. Um, and I also, I think you brought up a good point about consumerism. I'm not, if I can get me a good, a good belt, a good jacket, a good hat, good pair of boots, and then layer some things, then I don't have to buy that much. And I'm, you know, I'm, you're just kind of, uh, upcycling things, I guess, for lack of better Yeah. No, that's... I love that philosophy behind it too. Um, I feel like there's that sort of, it's built different, and if it's not broken, why fix it, or why replace it, right? Um, yeah. I think that's true. I think a lot of that stuff was built very well, but a lot of that stuff, our older stuff or vintage stuff, also was built pretty shitty and a lot of things now are definitely built way more efficient and way more convenient for us now and just better or maybe that even lasts longer than they they used to. So it kind of just depends on what you're talking about and it's hard not to generalize these things, but it's just more specific than that. and it full circle, it goes back into how attention spans, the music industry, immediacy, convenience, all of that seems like it could just be, I get it immediately and we don't know the quality behind it. And it's on purpose to be made. To be thrown out within the next two years. I mean, I know my phone with like software updates, it doesn't last very long and I have to replace it as soon as possible just so that I can keep up with that software updates. It runs smooth and all that good stuff. And it's almost like a game we're playing these days. Maybe I just need a flip phone again. Yeah, I think technology might, you might have to have that conversation just based around technology than everything else outside of that. Yeah, technology is weird in that way, but it also, man, doesn't help in a lot of ways, Yeah, a hundred percent. living in a city. When are you not using your Google Maps? When are you not Ubering or, or going, you know, using it to go to a restaurant or bar or listening to music or, you know, Instagram, whatever, um, tickets, all of that through there. So, yeah, it's kind of, it's tough. There's a lot to not like about it, but you, with any of this stuff, you can't really throw the baby out with the bathwater, can you? Love that. Well, uh, you're the kind of guy, I mean, even with these 20 minutes that I've been talking to you, Courtney, I mean, like, if you had the dream to play in packed stadiums and make a whole bunch of money, I do not get that vibe from you. Like, you seem very happy and content with making the music that you're making right now and the journey you're on, but if that is the case, where you don't have that goal, like, why do you continue to make music? What's pushing you to keep creating? I think, uh, I get asked a lot what would success look like for me, and honestly, if I could sell, you know, um, 10, 000 records every two years and play for 400, 500 people in most cities in the country, then that would be, that might not sound like a lot to people, but that would definitely Make me a good living and, and I would do it. And, and so that always feels somewhat attainable, um, like you could probably get there. But I think just the process, I mean regardless of what success means to me or, or anybody else, and, but to answer your question, what keeps me doing it is getting better at the process, focusing on the process, not thinking about Again, how many records I'm going to sell, how many tickets I'm going to sell to the next show, if I focus on how do I do my job better as a songwriter, as a performer, as a vocalist, as a, as a band leader, almost just how you would look at it in life. How are you a better friend, community, you know, how, how do you show up for your community, for your friends, for your, for your partners, you know, all of that. But I think I really enjoy the songwriting part. And once I Started really, um, becoming a little better singer. That's gotten to be a lot more fun and creative for me. Ah, create like better singer, like what, what do you mean by that? I mean, I myself, I'm not much of a vocalist. Uh, back in the day when I was in community college touring in my own bands, it was more of, um, like garage punk. Um, you know, very, uh, not tight. Sure. was more fun than anything else, you know? Um, but. What do you mean by being a better vocalist? Is it a certain register that you can hit or maybe bigger breaths? What do you mean by that? No, I think all of those things can be tools. I think I'm talking about it more, um, from. How you're connecting with people and all those things do take, I came up the same way. More DIY, more even, you know, the alt country or whatever we played was more of a punk ethos, just not very experienced and you just don't really think about, um, how you're connecting with people vocally, um, but then you really start, um, I don't know, researching it or taking lessons online or with a person and and figuring out why maybe your stuff wasn't connecting before. And a lot of it's physical and you don't know, like, you can try all you want, but until you kind of have some of these tools to develop the skill, then you're kind of just chasing your tail. And once you learn that, then you can become... A better songwriter as well, because you know how to use it for your voice, and then those things kind of, sometimes it's kind of one of those what comes first, chicken or the egg type of thing. Yeah, lyrics versus vocals. There's a difference between it all and I'm not much of a You know singer songwriter myself but you definitely tell like as an audience member or as a person listening to the album like you could tell where these Singers or frontman where their forte is and like what they're really good at or what they're evolving from the album previous to the album that you're listening to now. Is there anything in specific that might have changed, um, maybe like how you thought about 40 grit versus the previous EPs or maybe even the most recent one? Um, the most recent one is definitely the one I'm most proud of as a songwriter and a vocalist. It, um, the songs are more complete than they ever have been. Melodically, they feel good. Lyrically, um, I'm really proud of them. But then being able to execute them vocally, uh, is really exciting. I think... I approached it also from a way, because I was getting more confidence as a performer, I wanted to record it in a way that I could play these songs solo or full band. And that was the conversations we've had around it. Um, and I feel like we executed that pretty well. Love it, man. Yeah. After listening to the EP and thank you so much for giving me early access to that because it was a blast listening to it. Um, the layers behind it, the audio engineering behind it. And I feel like you've grown as well, like as a, as a artist. And I feel like it has more of a solemn introspective feel to it. And it's almost like I'm walking through the mountains and before the coffee hits me, the music hits me, you know? So is there any sort of, I guess thought process behind, um, why you went that route. And it sounds like you already answered it where you wanted to have that acoustic feel where you could perform it on your own versus the previous EPs. I feel like it's very band based, you know, where you have to have that group, but is there anything that, um, really led you to go down that path versus how you have been doing it in your previous EPs? Um, that's a good question and thanks for the kind words and thanks for listening to it. Um, I think sometimes you just start writing the songs and they kind of fit together and then you just kind of follow them. Again, you just focus on the process and then I think once they show themselves then you make production ideas based around them. And that's what we did. I wanted it to be, I didn't want many guitar solos. I didn't want a lot of any guitar hooks. I wanted the melody to carry the song and that connect with people. The story to connect with people. The melody and, and not a guitar hook, which is kind of what some of our old stuff used to be. Very guitar hooky. Um, and kind of a little more in your face in that way and some solos and more party songs. And I wanted this one to be a little more, have the songs and the characters in the songs to have a little more awareness. And, but also be layered and have a lot more depth in there and be like, like you said, you can put yourself in a place whether you're on a road trip. You're in a certain city or a certain part of the country or you're about to do a certain activity, I wanted you to be able to like go there really quick. And I definitely did. He did a good job putting me in that place, man. I maybe I'm looking a little bit too much into it, but I I'm not much of a carpenter, but 40 grits is. used for making some rough edges just slightly smoother and it's, you know, it's for use for a number of projects, but I would, I would assume that it's like the very beginning stage for really sanding it down to get it polished. Right. So why call it 40 grit versus let's say 800 grit, maybe you have 800 grit coming on a future. Well, uh, 40 grit is actually one of the roughest sandpapers, so it's like really doing the heavy duty work and yeah. Uh, I, I used it in my teens helping my dad work on cars, so, So you would just say in a car and that was one that if you really needed to get the job done type of thing. Um, but I also reference it as more of a metaphor in the last song on the album called It's All the Same. And the line is, um, can we fix it with 40 grit? Essentially, can we fix it with a lot of damn work or, um, is it just something that's not fixable? And you can look at that a bunch of different ways. Politically, economically, socially, uh, with your personal relationships, with your own inner work, whatever. You know, is it, maybe it's time to let go of whatever that thought or idea is. Maybe that thought or idea doesn't serve you anymore. There's a lot of ways of doing that. But then that also connects to the... The song on the EP, Blue Color Hard, where that character is actually working in a garage for a living. So, um, yeah. Yeah, with that last song, staying on that same vein, um, you mentioned death a couple of times in that, uh, that song as well. I think it was like, it's all the same, um, like, I don't remember the specific lyrics, but it had something to do with, is this all there is, right? Like, explain a little bit of that song if you don't mind, because maybe you have a better, uh, understanding of it than I do. Yeah, I mean, it's a song that I could be very detailed about talking about. But I also don't want it to be, most, I want people to have their own experience with it and not just mine. But, um, part of it, it starts out the characters like, um, Not having a good time health wise, you know, and, um, and then it goes, then that kind of, um, is an umbrella for, for, um, the world in general, right? And yeah, there's a shedding of skin, uh, death, um, whatever that looks like. Grief, letting go, um, or, or just being like, I actually, the song started because I, um, got sick. With, uh, COVID and the flu, like back to back, and I was just so frustrated and over being sick at that point in time and, um, that was like my way of, uh, trying to navigate it. Got it. Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, I don't even know if I got COVID at a certain point. Maybe I just thought it was the cold. Uh, everyone got such different responses to that. And I won't get into the whole COVID situation, but so unique. I, I'm so odd for people to just accept it and go through it themselves, you know? Yeah, it's pretty, it can also be pretty isolating too, right? Um, anytime and yeah, you just take Covid out of it, but just like. Getting the flu or getting anything, whatever, a hangover, is like, can all be pretty, um, humbling and isolating sometimes. And, uh, our, our bodies and minds are, are really tricky things. And I think sometimes we have more confidence over those things than what we probably should. Your EP release show will be over at the Skylark Lounge. And last I heard, you have some relations with Skylark Lounge. I think it's, uh, Nathaniel Ratliff, um, co owns that one, yeah? Yeah, he, he's a co owner in it. Um, and a buddy of his that he grew up with that I'm really close with, Bob, uh, runs that place and he co owns that place and, and manages it. And then I have another really close, uh, buddy that she, um, she's the talent buyer there. So it's kind of just a big part of our community. Um, And they've done a really good job, uh, you know, updating that place and upgrading it since they bought it and, um, and they treat us really well, obviously. Yeah. And remind me of the opening band for that show. That is a, uh, northern Colorado, Fort Collins, Wyoming band, uh, called the Patty Fiasco. So they're gonna come, they're gonna come down south from, from up there and open up the show with this. And I'm, I, I really like them a lot. They're, they're a blast and they're just a, a killer band. And, uh, it's gonna be a fun night. Stoked. I cannot wait myself. I feel like I'll be singing along to it now that I have some access to your songs now, Courtney. So I truly appreciate that, man. I'll be getting the crowd going. Yeah, we're actually releasing it, the album, uh, a week before the album release show, which I've never done before. We've always done it the day of the album release show. But like you said, I wanted people to have a week with it beforehand, um, to kind of get maybe use of these songs. So whenever they do hear them live, they don't feel, you know, sometimes you go to a live show and people are like, we're going to play a new one for you. And it may be good and it may be good six months or a year from now, but sometimes you're like, Kind of, it can take you out of it a little bit. So Yeah, 100%. Um, do you have any pre show rituals? I know each musician has their own. Maybe you, uh, have something that you don't consciously think about, but, um, I'm curious if you have one. I'm very conscientious in, in the, in my pre-show routine, and everything's done with a lot of intent. It goes back to, like you were talking about earlier, being a vocalist and a process and how you take care of yourself. But I do a pretty, I do a pretty routine vocal warmup. I try to like, stretch and just be really rooted in my body, get out of my head. I don't drink before the shows or during the shows. Um, just really try to drink a lot of water, try to eat something decent and, um, yeah, I try to like have a mix of like some, a little bit of like quiet time but also just hanging with the band and, and just getting down with them and, and having fun with them and Depending on where we're playing, yeah, maybe we'll go eat some dinner together or something like that. But yeah, I just try to like look at it all as not overwhelming or anxiety ridden and look at it like I can't believe every time it's like I can't believe I get to do this. I can't believe people actually showed up I can't believe this band is still here doing this with me and um, Yeah, let's just have a let's just have a barn party Gotcha. It's funny you bring that up too, um, getting into your own head and making sure that your nerves are calm before you go on set or on the, to perform. And I find myself almost downplaying it too much to the point where I don't. I don't have it as a core memory or I don't, um, fully realize its potential as a, um, as big of a deal as it should be, you know, do you have any sort of battles between that for yourself or do you still get the jitters going forward? Yeah, I feel like I always mess myself up that way. You mean as a performer, that's how you feel about it? Yeah. Or even speaking on stage or, you know, meeting someone for the first time, it's almost like, ah, they're another person, you know, just try to downplay it a little bit, but in actuality, they're my role model, they're my hero or something like that, you know? Yeah, yeah, I think, um, Yeah, it's, everybody has their own way about going about it. I am very excited and can be a pretty reckless, like, restless person. But before a show, Like, I almost feel like I need to take a nap. It's something weird where I'm like, Wake me up when it's time to go on, kind of thing. Um, Yeah, and maybe that's like your own nervous system calming you down. But, I don't know. I really try to think about it as there, we were just talking about people's short attention spans and all there is to do, and especially I love Denver. We live in a great city, and there's so much to do here, and so when people pay money and buy tickets and plan their night or week around coming to see us and spending money on, you know, food or alcohol or whatever, I want to give that back to them. I want to have that feedback loop, and I'm not trying to romanticize it in a way. Especially that comes off with any type of ego. It's truly like Thanks for being here. You had so many options and this is what you chose to do And i'm going to try to connect with you and i'm going to try to do my best and You know and not really i've seen people where Maybe a show doesn't sell out and the artist is bummed by it or maybe the room's not completely full And then they kind of take it out on the people that are already there They're like, you know, you guys, you, you know, like, will really be like kind of belligerent to the people that are there. And it's like, these people are the ones that actually chose to come see you. And I never really liked that or wanted to be that way. And I also, like, haven't always had the skill level I do now, and I've always appreciated that people continue to root for me and show up for me. hmm. That area of gratefulness, as you've mentioned so many times here, man, you, you always have that internally. And I love that about you, man, that gratefulness. Um, If you were to open for any band, uh, alive or dead, and it's just you and that headliner, who would it be? I'll give you two answers. If I was to open solo, then I would want to do that with John Prine. I think that would be nice to just to get to hang out with him. He always feels so, you know, approachable as an artist and a person. I feel like we would get along really well and have a lot, a lot in common. Um, as a full band, um, Either like. Probably somebody like on a large scale, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. Hmm, yeah, it's, it's funny you, um, You bring up both sides because now you have songs that you can perform live solo versus the whole band. So you have a lot more options, man. I love that. Um, well, sweet man. I appreciate your time, Courtney. This is, uh, been a long time coming and you are a gentleman and a scholar, especially in the music field. And you've been rooting for me a long time for Big Locals Podcast. It's always a blessing to see another person just like Cheer me on from the background. You're probably like, I don't know what you're doing, but you're doing it. You are. You are. And I think what first connected me with you is you probably had some type of chef or restaurant owner or something on and I've always liked your interview process and you've always asked great questions and you've always, um, you know, been a connector in the community that way. And I think that's really special, especially in a city like Denver. Thanks, man. Truly appreciate that. It was one way for me to make friends during COVID. It's an important thing to want to be a part of a community and, uh, whether it's, you know, a time like that or not, I think it's the right thing to do and it's not easy and, um, you, it takes a lot of work. Yeah, I truly appreciate that, man. And, um, so before I have you sign off, uh, remind the audience when your EP is coming out and when the EP release show is. The EP, uh, 40 Grit comes out October 20th and the, uh, album release party is October 27th at the Skylark. Uh, With the petty fiasco. Stoked for it. You will see me there, man. Truly appreciate your time, of course, Courtney. Thank you so much for being on The Big Locals. Yeah, thank you so much.