Camping Redefined: An Inside Look at CHEFRACK with Founder Josh Espy - S04E03

In this episode of the Big Locals Podcast, host Ian has an enlightening conversation with Josh Espy, the founder of CHEFRACK, an ingenious outdoor cooking solution designed for camping enthusiasts. Josh takes us on a journey through the development of CHEFRACK, from its humble plywood prototypes to the sophisticated, high-quality product it is today. He emphasizes the significance of hands-on craftsmanship, user feedback, and providing an exceptional customer experience.

CHEFRACK offers a versatile camping experience by being compatible with a range of coolers, such as Yeti, Coleman, and Dometic. Josh underlines the importance of collaboration with local businesses and highlights CHEFRACK's strategic partnership with Subaru dealerships. The episode showcases Josh's dedication to structured user feedback as a means to drive the future development of CHEFRACK and hints at exciting plans for new products and accessories to meet customer needs.

For those intrigued by CHEFRACK, there's even an option to rent it for a weekend, allowing you to test it out risk-free. Josh shares various ways to get in touch and learn more about CHEFRACK, emphasizing the personal touch of a small, local business. Join Ian and Josh in exploring how CHEFRACK transforms the camping experience in Colorado and beyond.

Josh Espy's Contact info: 
https://www.instagram.com/chef.rack/
https://www.chefrack.com/

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https://www.instagram.com/ian.realestateagent/
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Transcript

0:23

Hey, what's up? I'm Josh, and you're listening to the Big Locals Podcast. Uh, stoked to be here, and um, I make hitch mounted tailgate kitchens. Nice. And that is the Chef Rack. I'm super excited to hear more about that story, Josh. Uh, and before we even get into that story, cause there's more to you than just Chef Rack, man. There's so much about Josh himself. So, um, we actually first met over at the Denver Startup Week, right? How does, how did you get into that? And, uh, what was your experience with this, the Denver Startup Week? Yeah, uh, I first got into, uh, Denver Startup Week, um, through, through my girlfriend's mom. She's an amazing entrepreneur, um, has, has founded all sorts of companies, and when I decided to go out on my own, she, she had me over for lunch and said, hey, you know, there's some resources I want you to know about, uh, in case you want to take advantage of them. And one of them was Denver Startup Week. So my last time, or my, the first time I've been there was, uh, last year, um, I applied for the physical product showcase and to my shock, they were like, yeah, sure. Come on in. And, you know, um, and, and that, that year I spent the entire week building my display for the physical product showcase. No way. I missed every single session, didn't go to a single session. And frankly, didn't, you know, didn't realize how much was going on. I just thought I got to get this done. I got to get this done. Um, showed up at the physical product showcase and realized, Oh, there's so much more to Denver startup week than, than this tiny piece that I'm. And so this year I went to as many, uh, talks and panels and discussions and events as I possibly could. Um, I really tried to soak it all in and I feel much richer for it. It's in a, it's, it's, it's really an amazing resource. Um, and. No shock here, but it turns out people building businesses, people who are interested in starting things are really cool people. They're, they're, they're doers and they're makers. And I love those people. They, they give me energy and they make me feel, um, like change is possible. Like, um, positive change is something that we can take control of and try for. Um, and that's a really good energy. And, and when you get enough people in those people in one room. It's a, it's a pretty electric atmosphere. No joke. It's funny. You bring that up, um, with your experience with Denver startup week, because with that many or those many, that many resources, presentations, the amount of people there and the intellectual people that are there, I would have expected paying like 50 bucks to get in, but it was. Free. I was completely amazed that something like that, where it was just enriching the community. And, uh, I got to meet a whole bunch of other local businesses and startups and really smart people all in one place for absolutely free. So for those of you people that. Have not gone to Denver startup where you have to go next year or at least talk to people along the way that have been a part of it for the past couple of years and enjoy yourself because it's not just for people that have businesses, it's just to get an understanding of what the local Denver scene is like. So were there any presentations or people that really impressed you at the startup week? Yeah. Um, just to touch on your point that the free thing is crazy. I mean, it's crazy. And I, and I didn't get it until I realized I went to a talk and this was one of the talks that really impressed me. Um, it was about finding mentors and the big takeaway was not only Denver startup week, But the entire ethos of startup culture here in the front range is give first. It's about being generous. It's about helping. Um, and it's about expecting nothing in return. And When that was said, it all made sense to me. It's like, oh, I see, they're giving first. They're, they're giving all of us, um, founders, VCs, people that want to learn skills or are interested in particular sections of this world. Um, they're giving all of us all of these resources and they're not expecting anything in return. Um, other than, you know, we do the same. Um, so, so to that end, uh, I went to a talk called One to One Million. Um, it was three VCs, two founders, um, and a moderator who, who really knew his stuff. Um, and that talk impressed me for, for two reasons. One, it was really... Specific advice, I find, that is most actionable is often the most specific. And so it wasn't loose, you know, um, sayings, it wasn't, it wasn't cute idioms, it was real actionable advice. And the second thing was, I went up, uh, afterwards. And I got everybody's email and I am meeting with all of those people. I mean, it's crazy. It's like, it's like being at a, at a concert and then getting to just walk up and talk to the musicians afterwards. You know, I mean, it was, it was really eyeopening that if I just ask, um, because of this give first culture, you know, you often receive a lot, a lot of advice and a lot of help and a lot of, um, encouragement that, that honestly sometimes doesn't feel, uh, earned, but it's very, very appreciated. Because of it. Or they see themselves in you. And when you're starting out your own business, as you're, you go on your own entrepreneurial journey, they were like, uh, at least the ones that I was talking to, they were like, Hey, I want to make sure you don't make these mistakes. I want to make sure that you're able to compound and invest in yourself first and make sure you take care of yourself first before you move on to, you know, uh, helping others. Because, um, at least that, that was the main thing that I got out of it where you can't fill other people's cups until you fill up your own cup. And that was the biggest piece of piece of advice. And it comes from a almost like. I don't want to say regrets, but almost like a lesson learned where I feel like they could have helped out more people if they had their own cup filled when they were for starting their journey. So, uh, you're not alone in that, Josh. I feel like, um, so my wife is a software engineer and she went to Ruby Rocky mountain convention. So she just met so many people like in the engineering space, the software design space. And she felt exactly the same way as you just said, where it's like they gave first and they all connected via LinkedIn, uh, via emails, trade emails and all that good stuff. And she was like, I'm just volunteering. Like, do I deserve this? This is amazing. So it sounds like it's the same, same attitude. yeah. And I think, you know, I, I, it's, it's hard to draw, um, broad conclusions, but, but I found that, uh, very true in the, in the startup scene here. And I, I don't think that's a new opinion at all. Um, someone said to me at Startup Week, actually, um, Denver is a good place to start a business because there's enough capital, um, but also way more collaboration than in other parts of the country. Hmm. is a place where there, there, there's absolutely funders, there's absolutely the capital and the resources, um, writ large to, to make your dreams happen. But critically, there is an attitude and a small town vibe. That allows for some, some really meaningful mentorship to happen. Uh, and that's a really, a really special thing. And I feel super grateful to have, have started my business here, as opposed to really anywhere else. Yeah. And that small town vibe, you are not. Foreign to that vibe and especially coming from Maine, right? You grew up in Maine and eventually went to college over the Vermont area. So, um, what did you just stay in Maine or were there any other places that you lived in prior to going to college in Vermont? Yeah. Great question. And no, I grew up in the same house, um, 18 years until I left for college. Um, and the town I grew up in is, is Freeport, Maine. So it's down on the coast. And I tell everyone, Maine is weird, man. And I mean that with love. Maine is weird. It is, it is, uh, it is truly, uh, the Eastern frontier of the United States. Um, and I think that it, it, it breeds a sense of community that is, um, somewhat rugged and also somewhat quirky. Um, and I, I try to keep those, those things. Um, with me, you know, as I've, as I've moved west, um, that, that sense of, of we are responsible. We are, we are the ones that will do it. There, there's really no one else to come solve these problems, so we will be the ones to take responsibility for it, uh, and we can. You know, and I think that that attitude is infectious in some way. And I, I feel like this is going to be a common theme as we progress through your story, because doing it for yourself, doing in the, putting in the hard work to create ChefRack. Seems like it was, uh, at least to me, like doing research on you was such an ordeal, like to learn these skills and eventually come up with a product that is so sturdy, fascinating and useful, especially here in the Boulder and Denver area. I can't wait to get into that story, but one thing, or maybe a couple of things I want to bring up to lead on to the Boulder area is. Vermont, you studied architecture and I'm not sure exactly how that translates into ChefRack, but it sounds like you still had that design element going into creating that product. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I started my career in architecture. Um, I love architecture. Architecture is my first love. And I mean that in a pretty holistic sense. Um, I... I studied a lot of architectural history and obviously did a lot of architectural design in college. Um, and I, I had the opportunity to study, uh, at university college, Dublin, my junior year, which was a very intensive, um, yeah, a super intensive experience. They take it really seriously over there. Um, 18 hour days every day in the studio, um, which was, uh, which was a really eyeopening experience and gave me sort of a taste of. of, um, the, the rigor of some of the European programs. Um, but, but I, I, I, I truly love architecture because it is the intersection, um, between human needs and physical reality and, um, architects have this expression that they, they talk about running the scales and what they mean is, um, considering problems at different levels, uh, and, and they talk about it as being, uh, like a superpower that if you can run the scales, if you consider. Let's take the simplest joint. You know, there's, pardon me. There's the, the, the joint between, um, uh, two pieces of steel and all the way up to the, the way that two metropolises join, uh, in their highway systems. And, and if you can consider a problem at every scale in between, it's a pretty unique way of looking at the world and a very powerful one. And so, Those sorts of meta thinking ideas fascinated and grabbed me, and I had a hard time not just jumping, jumping headlong into that. So when I, when I came out to Boulder, I, I practiced architecture, um, at a firm called Arc 11, uh, which was based out of Boulder and Denver. And, um, they were a very, they are a very academic firm. They really love the ideas, they really love pushing the boundaries, and they practice what they would which. Hmm. To them and to me because I'm a student of theirs, um, is, is very interested in the meta thinking around how and why we build the things we build. Um, and, and with a real focus on how does this physical object influence and fit into, um, the lived experience of people and, and their hopes, their dreams, their aspirations. That intersection again between humanity and the built environment is something that they really allowed me to explore and coached me in. And I feel grateful to all those guys. They're wonderful people. Yeah. And to touch on that a little bit more, because I'm not too familiar with the architectural industry. I mean, granted I'm a real estate agent, so I work with houses. That is my extent in like builds. Right. So when you go, when you talk about like the academic focus, are you talking about they love the. Specificities, the rigor, the studiousness of being an architect, or what did you mean by that? Academia foundation with ARC 11, yeah, yeah. So, um, how do I put this in a clean way? There's a, um... It's, it's, it's a rigor of thinking. So, um, let me give you an example. We built a, um, bespoke factory, uh, in Blum, Texas, and this factory, uh, makes, um, high tech equipment for the hydraulic fracturing. Industry and the specific piece that they make is a perforating gun, which is a steel cylinder with very, um, specific, um, bore holes in it so that you can detonate an explosive far underground and it will direct that detonation into the, into the shale, uh, at just the right angle, um, to, to fracture the rock in such a way that it will release, um, the crude oil. So There are a lot of ways to house that program. There are a lot of ways to build a factory that will do, you know, what needs to be done in terms of setting up a factory floor. Um, but we decided that we wanted to express the nature of what's actually happening in the building on the facade of the building. So, um, we came up with this really, um, progressive facade that basically makes uses of, uh, what's called insulated metal panels. So these are pretty typical Um, uh, building technology, they're, they're thermal panels. They allow for very quick assembly. Um, but then we figured out a way to coat a few of them in super high polish mirror finish. And we designed the facade such that it actually looks like layers of sedimentary rock with a single band of highly polished. reflective material running through it and then fracturing up and out. And so as you move from the left to the right of the facade, it goes from a totally solid facade to these, these, um, streaks of sky which are the reflection of the Of the mirror finish and then actually breaks into the office portion of the building, which is all glass and and so it's this totally smooth gradient that expresses that fracturing move, which is, of course, is the whole idea of the program that's happening inside. So that's what I mean by rigor of thinking where you really try to, um, express and. Um, make beautiful the idea behind what we're doing in the first place. Why are we building this in the first place? What, you know, what are we trying to accomplish here? And, and can we make that visual, make that lived and make that expressed? And, and, and that's kind of what I mean. Beautiful. Uh, I feel like that, uh, you have a good vocabulary, by the way, like just listening to everything that you were saying, like describing the perforations, the, the, the, the finishes, the facades. I was like, Whoa, I can almost picture this at this point. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, that, that building got featured on, um, America, the beautiful, which is a TV show. So, so for your viewers that are interested, uh, I think it's episode four, but it's, um, you can see the building itself and understand what we were trying to, what we were trying to express through it. Um, you know, it's funny what you say about the, the vocabulary of architecture is a totally different language. And the first year I worked there, I remember thinking like, I don't know half these words. Like, you know, and they're really specific. Like, the architects use, use a broad vocabulary when they talk about building elements because they, they, they need to be very specific. It's very important that they be really specific about what they're talking about. So it took me about two years to finally feel like I was speaking, speaking the same language I feel like there's a, a bridge here where, uh, architecture, I mean, just listening to the linguistics here, um, where you need to have that. Uh, fine line between, or maybe, maybe I should say even gray area between science and art, where now you have to, yes, be very specific linguistically, but how do you communicate that via science and having these scales and engineering involved and having a different company and money involved as well, and having a happy clients. How does this all come together? And it seems like architecture is that melding or amalgamation of all those different categories. Yeah. a hundred percent. It's, it's running the scales, right? It's, it's being able to consider a problem at, at different levels and at different, um, fidelities. Understanding how that all fits into a larger picture. That, that's, that's the, the through line that I always think about. Wonderful. And with this precision, with this art background within the architecture realm, I feel like this really ties in really well to how you came up with ChefRack. And I got to see ChefRack in person, the product, how it unfolds, the components of it. How well thought out it is. And here you are coming from this architecture firm, building something that is an augmentation to camping. And I know I love that camping feel and having something that I can transport with me. That's pretty much a full on kitchen is a wonderful thing. So without me diving too much into it without you saying anything, I would love for you to explain a chef rack. If you don't mind, Josh. Yeah, yeah, so, um, ChefRack is a hitch mounted adventure kitchen. And what that means is, uh, it clips into your two inch hitch, it rides on the back of your car, um, it is a, Aluminum frame, aluminum box, and in it, um, you have a two burner stove, integrated propane system underneath, and a dry box that locks. Um, you've got this large storage trunk which holds a full size cooler with adjustable feet so that you can take any size cooler, strap down gear, anything you don't want in the car. Uh, and all of this is closed underneath to, um, flip out 5. 5 square foot bamboo cutting tops. Um, so such that when you open them up, um, you've got your, your two burner stove there and your cooler ready to access. And when you close them down, the entire thing is bear proof, waterproof, dustproof, locked up, uh, and can, and can ride high, uh, above any sort of rough road or what have you. Um, so, so we, we think of it as like a complete hitch, a kitchen on your hitch. Um, and, and really it will double your trunk space. And we did a test once. We wanted to see exactly how long does it take to start cooking, right? Because we say park and start cooking. So the actual answer is it takes 10. 8 seconds to turn off your key, open your door, walk around the car and turn on the stove. So the actual answer is 10. 8 seconds. But I think you get the point, which is, um, This makes camp cooking fun and easy. Uh, it makes space in your car, uh, and it's a vibe, frankly. Hmm. I love that. It's funny that you bring up even just the science of how quick can we make this happen? I mean, quite frankly, I would have thought that under 30 seconds would have been a. You have it under 15, even under 11 seconds to be more specific. So Yeah. I'm, I'm glad you guys thought that all the way through and talking about, uh, how it hooks on to the car. Um, I know for a typical, let's say a sedan. Or a coupe, maybe not so much. It's not something that you would recommend to have it connected to, but something that's a hatchback like a Subaru or something like, like an SUV. Yeah. What's the minimum required standard for having ChefRack on the trunk? Or on the Great question. It's, it's two things. So you need a two inch hitch. If you've got a two inch hitch receiver, you're good to go. Um, and then we say, uh, you need at least a 200 pound tongue weight rating. Um, to put that in simple terms, if you have, um. A sedan, if you have a, you know, a city car that is, that never comes standard with a hitch and it's hard to find a two inch hitch for it. That, that's not going to work. Otherwise, you're in great shape. If you've got a compact SUV, you've got a full size SUV, if you've got a pickup truck, a van, um, if you've got, um, even a cargo van, you know, all of those cars are going to do really well. Um, and, and, and really it's, it's a two inch hitch and a tongue weight rating of 200 pounds. I developed ChefRack on my Subaru Crosstrek. Um, that's got a 200 pound weight rating. So on its tongue weight rating, uh, and, and, you know, I've driven cross country several times with my chef rack, um, because I use it because it's helpful. Um, and, uh, and it works just fine. So, um, I, I will say that, um, we have spent a lot of time and effort to make sure that if you've ever had a loose. or wobbly attachment on your hitch. You know what I'm talking about. Where it starts to shake and then the car starts to shake. That is a horrible feeling and it is not something that I am willing to put up with. And so we've spent a lot of time engineering a solution where the chef rack rides super solid. It does not shake, it does not rattle, and it rides high. Because, um, for a lot of us here on the front range, We want to get out there. I don't want to be constrained to, you know, easy to drive roads. I want to go wherever my vehicle can go. Um, and so we've designed this hitch arm mount and these anti rattle, uh, locking mounting points so that you can, you can drive on rough terrain. Uh, and it will not move, it will not shake, and it will not scrape. That's amazing. And it even has the high clearance too. So that you can, what is it? A couple of feet. Yeah. Cause I saw a couple of pictures where it's even over, well, maybe like matching where the bumper is on certain trucks, um, and all that good stuff. So you have enough clearance so that it doesn't. Pop up any rocks, which hits the chef's, uh, chef rack and all that good stuff. So you thought about everything in the meantime, a Yeah, and I would say not even thought about it, we tested it, right? Like, we tried it and failed a lot of times, and through that failure learned like, Okay, this is the minimum clearance we need. Um, there's no worse feeling than going over a bump and hearing, Krrrk, you know? Like, that's, that's not acceptable. I, I can't accept that. So, um, we, we've definitely learned these lessons the hard way. Um, but because I'm an avid camper and, and love to be outside, it's, You know, learning the hard way often means going and having a magical adventure and, and, you know, messing up my stuff and figuring out how to make it better. hundred percent. And let's say I have a truck and I have a two inch hitch, everything you've said so far, it meets all the proper qualifications. But let's say I want to bring my tailgate down. Um, what can happen to make that all work? Great question. So we offer two hitch variations. We offer the fixed hitch and we offer a swing way hitch mount. So for those that want to have sort of the L cooking set up by pulling down your tailgate, or even if you just want easier access to your trunk, the swing way hitch variant is absolutely the way to go. That means you can swing the entire box out and to the right as you as you look at the car onto the passenger side. And then you can have this really great L cooking setup where the back of your truck or tailgate is one surface and then the chef rack is your other surface. God, it's okay. Cool. So even if I have a truck, it's completely fine. You have some sort of modification to make it all work. Awesome. With, um, uh, shoot, I was about to ask. Oh yeah. With the components you have here, you mentioned bamboo. Why bamboo? Did you try other types of wood? Is there something about bamboo that makes that material just spot on? Yeah, great question. Yes, the short answer is we've tried everything. This was a major thing for us. So, um, it is a surprisingly. It is a surprisingly heavy spec area. And what I mean of that is it needs to do a lot of things very well. So, um, these tops need to meet a bunch of criteria. They need to hold up to the weather. Um, and obviously they're not exposed when you're driving or, or when the chef rack is closed, but when it is open, uh, it's really important. The quality is, is a really big deal to us. So it's really important that it hold up well to the weather. Um, you need to be able to put hot things on it. without damaging it in any way, because if you've got something hot on the stove, you need to be able to just put it on, put it on the tabletop. I don't have time for, you know, pot holders or, you know, all that stuff. It, it, it's just gotta be easy. Um, you need to be able to cut directly on it. Um, Otherwise you have to bring extra stuff, uh, and that's the whole, you know, we're trying to eliminate all the extra stuff. So, um, and then it's gotta be easy to clean and it's gotta be antimicrobial. Um, we have tested a bunch of different plastics. We've tested solid wood. We've tested wood veneers. Um, and the reason we've settled on bamboo is because it meets all the criteria, um, plus one. So you can cut right on it. Um, you can clean it and refinish it. Uh, if you ever want to, you can put hot things on it. Um, it holds up really well to the elements. It is a three ply cross lamination, which means that even if it absorbs some moisture from the atmosphere, the cross lamination prevents any sort of. warping, whereas if you used a solid wood top, what we found is because the wood is through body, um, the more pores that you have, or the thicker the wood is, the more moisture it can absorb, and therefore the more deflection that, that, that it can do. And the last piece of the bamboo is, um, frankly, it's beautiful. And if I'm going to go outside, I'm doing this for fun. I'm doing this because it's enjoyable. I want to feel Like my experiences and my trips, uh, are part of a beautiful journey and not part of some, um, less appealing process. So for me, beauty matters. Um, and this definitely comes from my, my background in, in high end architecture, like the way things look and feel, the, the way I interact with them to me really, really matters. So, um, when we found this bamboo, we, we source it, uh, from the Northeast. Um, we worked really hard to. To both find the highest quality and, and to, you know, it's a very delicate piece when we put it in. It takes a while to laminate in, um, and we're happy to do it because it's, it's a delightful experience and it performs extremely well. Mmm You've mentioned a couple times here now that you've tried different types of wood, different types of plastics, different types of hitches And you've probably done this with several different components of chef rack. What version is this? I feel like there's almost an endless amount of prototypes before you finally came up with ChefRack. And um, so how long has that process been and do you feel complete at this point? Great question. Uh, no, we're never complete. Um, we never stopped iterating. We never stopped trying things. Um, and really that just comes from an attitude that we never stopped learning. Um, I, this is, so the way we do this is, um, every time we make a major tectonic change, meaning the actual function or shape of the product changes, that's a different chapter number. So 1. 0, Every time we make a more minor change, like we changed the door technology or we, um, Change the surface of the, um, of the cutting surface. You know, we changed to bamboo or whatever. That's point, so 1. 2, 1. 3, 1. 4. Um, so this is version, uh, 5. 4, um, which means that there have been over 25, um, A different, different prototypes over time, um, and some of them, man, the first few prototypes, it was like plywood and wishful thinking, you know what I mean? I, like, just, you look back and you just have to laugh, um, and that's good, right? That, you know, those, those were learning vehicles. The first one never even made it onto a car. It fell apart before it got onto a vehicle, and I was like, all right, we, we can't make it out of this. We know that's not gonna work. Um, but yeah, yeah, and, and, and a big piece of The way that we're able to do that, um, and, and this is something that's often stressed at, at startup week and other sorts of startup events. Um, it's that I'm a technical founder. I I've taught myself to. To do the fabrication and the design myself, and that keeps costs much lower for development, which allows us to try things. If there's something we want to try, we have an idea, or we have a piece of feedback and we want to try something, we just go do it, you know, and, and not having to work through third parties to do that, uh, saves an unbelievable amount of time and money. And what we found is you may have five really good ideas. And you might be able to throw out two on the drawing board and say, okay, for this or that reason, it's not going to work, but you kind of got, you got to go test the next three. Um, and it's really hard to know the answer until you try it. Um, and if you have to work with a third party to try each of those answers. Uh, it's an order of magnitude more expensive, which means we just can't get through all three and we can't find the optimal answer. So, by investing the time to teach ourselves those kind of school skills, uh, it makes a big difference in terms of how many right answers we can find how fast. Love it, man. It's, it's funny you bring that up because a lot of people are curious why certain local products might cost more than a typical, let's say overseas product. And it just makes so much sense when you are actually talking to someone that keeps it all in house, where you are the technical. I forgot exactly the terminology you use, but, um, the main point of it is, is that you're paying for quality. You're getting that immediate feedback loop. As soon as you get feedback, you're like, yeah, we should improve on this. And this is what people are demanding from us. And so if we're able to meet that demand, it's an overall better product and you get better business that way and better testimonials, quite frankly, and which means eventually. Better camping experiences, which is the ultimate mission here, it sounds like. No doubt. No doubt. Yeah, absolutely. With the foundation of Chef Rack, you mentioned that there's the burners, the bamboo, the actual shell of it, and the cooler. Is there any... Cooler that you would highly recommend to have within ChefRack or just any typical cooler Let's say from Igloo or even to Yeti or even to what's that one Dometic Dometic? Seems to be really high end coolers. Is there any that you would recommend to have with ChefRack? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, with the way we designed our cooler bay is by making like the mega spreadsheet of all the best coolers in the world and their sizes and their performance specs. So, so if you want to know about coolers, I know way more than I want to know about coolers. Um, but, um, the three coolers that we really highly recommend, the Yeti's Tundra 45 fits very nicely in there because we designed it too. Um, we also use the Coleman 54 quart steel belted cooler a lot. Um, it's a, it's a, it's a more budget cooler, but it's beautiful and it performs very well. Um, and then we absolutely can fit, uh, several of the Dometic sizes. And one of the advantages there is you're already on the hitch. So using a seven pin connector. To your tailgate, um, lights. You can power it right there. Um, so a lot of folks like doing that because then, um, they can have a powered cooler that is outside of the vehicle, but still benefiting from the car battery, uh, and staying cold without ice. Hmm, Like I said, we have these adjustable feet in the bottom. So if you have any cooler that fits inside the cooler bay, um, then obviously you're going to be able to fit it securely. We do what we call the egg test. So we'll drive a bunch of eggs around in the cooler on rough roads and see what happens. And we haven't broken an egg yet. So we're very proud of that. Um, yeah, yeah. But, but, uh, the other thing I will mention is because you have these closing lids, we made the decision to make the lids out of stainless steel. There's a bunch of reasons for that durability, um, bear proof, uh, but a big one is that they're reflective and therefore they, uh, minimize the solar gain that we take. And so they actually improve the performance of your cooler pretty significantly when the tops are closed. So, um, even, even a lower quality cooler or cooler that doesn't hold ice quite as well is going to perform a lot better in chef rack because instead of. accumulating heat in the box. It's actually venting heat and, and reflecting the solar gain with those reflective stainless steel tops. Um, so we've, we've been able to get quite good performance, uh, out of coolers, even at a lower price point. Wonderful. And speaking of battling the elements from keeping it cold when it's hot outside and vice versa. Um, let's say with rain with water. I mean, it sounds like bamboo is already pretty resistant to it and the frame itself, the stainless steel and all that good stuff. But let's say if water gets inside that component of, you know, where the cooler is, um, is there anything to prevent any sort of like buildup pooling and all that good stuff? Yeah, great question. So, um, yes, the entire chef rack is self draining and that has less to do with unintentional water ingress and has much more to do with the fact that, um, Eventually you're going to want to just hose it down, right? At some point, you know, be it a spill or just, you know, Driving in the mud. everyday life. Yeah. You're going to want to hose it down. And so we've designed it to be completely self draining. Um, and therefore when I clean my chef rack, I just take it through the carwash, you know, one of those self serve car washes. I hose down my vehicle, I open it up and then I just hose it down. Um, and we have, uh, the way that that works is the bottom panels. slot into a very specific aluminum profile and that profile allows water to drain out but not in. It's kind of like a p trap. Um, and so you can just hose the entire thing down and you can let your cooler drain directly into there and it will always just drain right out. Um, the entire assembly is waterproof. So, you never have to worry that water is going to damage the chef rack. Um, but, if you do want to just add a bunch of water in there and clean it out, it will also self drain. Gotcha. So you thought about that too? Surprise, surprise. We learned about it, right? We learned about it. Um, there was a version that didn't do that, and we were like, wait a second, this isn't going to work. Um, there's got to be a better way, and we were able to pretty quickly come up with it. Wonderful. Um, with, with Chef Rack, I mean, it already sounds like an awesome product, but let's say if someone is not really willing to pull the triggers or any way to take it away for a weekend, try it out. Uh, things like that. Yeah, absolutely. We, we do offer rentals. Um, so, uh, the best way to go, if you go to chefrack. com, um, there's a big rental tab right at the top, um, and you can schedule the days you want to rent. And I gotta say the rental program for us is primarily about introducing people to ChefRack. And getting their feedback. We take learning really seriously. That is my passion is to, is to learn and understand. And that means listening to people. Um, and so it's a great deal, but also we deliver Chef Rack to you and pick it up from you. For free. Um, that's not a great business model for us, but it does mean that we get to have a face to face conversation with you, which is what I really look for. So, um, if you are curious about ChefRack and curious about trying it out and see if it works on your vehicle, go ahead and rent it for a couple of days, uh, rent it for a weekend. And, uh, I'll come bring it to you. I will pick it up and you can try it out. It's risk free and a great way to just see like, Hey, is this for me? Oh my gosh. I absolutely love the, uh, what do you call it? The full accountability with your product, your service, your business. It's something that just warms my heart because it's something you don't normally see every day. Um, so blows my mind as well, but I mean, I mean, going back to the actual product itself and how you even formed it. I mean, you must've taught yourself like woodworking, welding, and I had to look this up, but you mentioned CNC, computer numerical control. I mean, is this all stuff or skills that you've learned along the way? Or did you have to pick up anything just prior to getting chef ready for the market? Oh yeah. Um, no. So, um, this, the skills that I had developed, um, working in architecture, I, you know, I had done some carpentry. I built a few houses. Um, I really enjoyed that process, but mostly wood based. Um, woodworking stuff. Um, my dad had a wood shop growing up and I worked for builders in college, um, building homes. So, that, that was sort of familiar to me. Um, I had never worked in metal, plastic. I, I had never done CNC or thermoforming or those sorts of things. More advanced skills, uh, until I needed to with ChefRack. So, um, I wanna, I wanna plug my favorite place in the world, which is Tinkermill. Tinkermill is the Longmont Makerspace, and it is amazing. Um, it's, it's basically a gym membership. It's 60 bucks a month, you get a key fob, you get certified on the machines, and then you can go in anytime, day or night, and work on the machines and talk to some of the most knowledgeable, and again, this, this sort of giving first attitude. Um, amazing community maker space. And that is where I've learned to do all of these things from, from, from people like you and me who have these skills and are really excited to teach. Um, so I taught myself, um, or I should say, I, you know, I taught myself and was taught, um, Megan Tigg welding, um, and then CNC machining, which is, which is exactly, as you say, community, computer numerical, um, machining and, um. What's exciting about a place like Tinkermill, where you have all of these shops, you know, metal, wood, plastic, textiles, 3d printing. Um, when you have all those shops together, you can start to combine processes. So for instance, for ChefRack 4. 5, I want to say, we wanted to do a thermoformed, which is like a plastic insert. For the, for the stove. And then that way the stove could nestle in there and there was a little slot for your utensils. So the way that we accomplished that is we went into the wood shop. And fit together, uh, what's called a blank, which is just a bunch of, um, wood, you know, three quarter inch pieces of wood that are all glued together into a solid block. Took that to the CNC machine, and then using the CNC machine, carved into it, um, the, the, the buck, which is the, the forming piece. We took that over to the thermoforming machine, and we stretched a piece of plastic above it, heated the plastic, and then dropped it onto the buck and activated the vacuum chamber, which sucks the plastic onto the buck and then forbs the plastic into the shape you want. That is only possible because you're using three different shops in a row in sequence, you know? And because there was, you know, there's a bunch of retired engineers there who are like, oh, by the way, did you know you can do this? Um, that is why I love Tinkermill. I'm always happy to plug them. Amazing people, generous people, and, and a really, really good deal. A nonprofit organization. Without Tinker Mill, I would not be here. Um, so I want to give them all the love I can. Big shout out to Tinkermill, uh, Josh, actually, I might have some homework for you to try to get them on the Big Locals podcast. I'll, I will also email them and bother them as well, but I think having it come from you seems to have more weight than myself. Happy to, happy to. Wonderful, man. Um, a couple of the things there was an Instagram post that I saw that. Had ChefRack featured in the AutoNation Subaru dealership. Congratulations on that! That's amazing! I feel like the Subaru owners, uh, the best complementary with C O M P L E complementary, uh, piece to the Subaru is a ChefRack in my opinion. So, how did you get into that? How did you get that featured in the AutoNation? Yeah. So, uh, we're actually in, in two Subaru dealerships. We're in Chomp Subaru in Aurora, which is the nation's largest Subaru dealership. Uh, and we are also in AutoNation West here in Golden. And that connection came through a mentor of mine, Susan O'Rourke, who has done a lot of work in the automotive space. She sold into dealerships extensively and she Um, I met her at a startup conference, a destination startup in Denver. Um, and we hit it off and, and she's one of those people that is extremely generous with her time and her connections and said, Hey, you know, I have a connection at Subaru. Would you, would you like me to make the introduction? And so I, I went in there and pitched them and they. He immediately understood that, that this was a, a pretty natural overlap between customers. Um, and it was interesting because one thing they said to me very clearly was, um, Subaru takes care of their customers. Subaru, Subaru cares a lot about the customer experience, um, and about adding value to people's lives in a non gimmicky way. And they made it really clear, like, you know, you're, you're now, you're now under the umbrella of, of the premium Subaru brand. Don't mess this up for us, you know? Um, and I, and I really take a lot of direction from that. I really try to, um, to do them proud, but also to do their customers right. Um, if they're going to offer me the opportunity to be in front of their customers, I have to deliver. So, um, that means, that means white glove service. It means delighting the customer every time. And, uh, You know, I'm lucky because we're a small local business. We can do that. We can make sure that every customer has an incredible experience and if they don't have the experience that they want to have, we can make it right. Right here, right now. Um, there's a certain size where I assume that businesses have a harder time doing that, but we're really lucky to be able to deliver that kind of experience. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that was very far fetched of you to, um, say that you will be providing that excellent customer service because it seems like you've been doing it already. Like you're just practicing that same business practice going on through and partnering with Subaru. They're like, don't mess this up. It's like, I've been doing this already. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why that, you know, frankly, that's why I knew that we could deliver that. Um, and, and honestly, it's the way I look at it is it's a, it's a business decision. Either you're looking for one sale or you're looking for the lifetime value of the customer. And you have to decide what side of the fence you're on. And for me, it's clear, right? I, my background is in making quality things. I don't enjoy making low quality things. It doesn't make me feel good about myself. I don't get excited about it. Um, so I'm always going to make high quality things and that comes with, um, you know, a premium product. Uh, and it comes with focusing on the lifetime value of the customer and making sure that their experience with you from start to finish. Uh, is positive, um, and, and feels valuable to them. And so, um, yeah, it, it, it absolutely means operating at, at lower profit margins. Uh, there are trade offs, but it's who I am as a person. It's the kind of experience I want to deliver. And I think that's why it's such a natural fit with, with Subaru. And we're, we're really excited to work with them. Yeah, it's a long term play. And it sounds like you're in it for the long term, Josh. It's something that people will be coming back to for a reason. So, I absolutely love that. Um, now that you've gone through certain prototypes, certain versions of Chef Rack, Um, maybe you picked up something along the way where it's like, Hmm, how do I augment the camping experience even more outside of ChefRack? Or do you have like add ons to ChefRack that might help out like with pots and pans or whatever it might be? Yeah, yeah, great question. Um, so this is something that I've, as with everything, frankly, something that I've had to learn, uh, and I continue to learn. Um, when I first started making Chef Rags, I just kind of did what I thought was right. You know what I mean? I just kind of made guesses and thought, well, I would use it this way and I am using it this way and I would take it out and, and see what happens and what works and what doesn't. Um, but as time has gone on, I've learned that there is a more professional way to do this. There's a more effective way to do this. And it really has to do with structured interviews, um, and structured user feedback, asking the same questions, which are open ended and non biased over and over again. Um, specifically to your target audience and to no one else. Um, and so right now we're running, um, a feedback study. Uh, actually two in parallel, um, that are aimed at, at understanding some, some really specific ways in which ChefRack fits into people's lives. So for instance, um, ChefRack has to go somewhere for some folks, right? I keep my ChefRack on my vehicle all the time because I can't feel it when I drive, it doesn't get in the way. No big deal, but not everyone wants to do that. And then if you want to take your chef rack off, which, which a lot of people do, um, it needs to go somewhere. And so understanding the circumstances of people's lives and how chef rack fits into that is very important to us. Um, and has to do with a lot of our future product decisions. So I can't spill too many beans now, but I do want to say that there are, there are big things in the works. Um, and, and they come from this, um, sort of scientific process of, of, of really trying to be diligent about. Asking questions that do not introduce bias and do not assume anything about our customers, um, and, and the way that ChefRec fits into their life, but instead allow them to tell us, here's what we want, here's what's working, here's what could be working better. Have the demand and the data speak for themselves. I feel like you're just getting answers directly from the consumer themselves. And it's like, why assume things when we could, when we could get the data directly. So that makes total sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. I said to a, I did a panel on a Boulder startup week, um, a few months back. And, and I, I said to the audience, you know, one thing I've learned is that I'm a beautiful butterfly. And what that means is I'm very unique. I cannot assume that my experience is anyone else's experience or anyone else's experience is anyone else's experience for that matter. And I think removing the self and the ego. From this equation has been a real learning for me that just because you do it one way does not mean that others do, and you need to ask them, how do you do this? How does this work for you? Um, and not just assume that your way is the highway, you know? Yeah, a hundred percent. Well, awesome, Josh. I truly appreciate your time, man. I feel like Chef Rack is great for those even here on the front range, Boulder, Denver, wherever they might be, even the nation, especially if we want to go out to that camping experience and just want to go outdoors and save that trunk space and make it a quality experience. So if people were to learn more about Chef Rack or even purchase one, where would they go? Yeah, so ChefRack. com is the, is the place. Um, and I would encourage you to, to, to check out a few things. Um, homepage, there will be a really detailed description of all of the benefits, but more importantly, how it fits onto your vehicle. Um, you, it helps you imagine, you know, how it would fit into your life. Um, so I would definitely check out that homepage. I would also check out the contact us page. My personal cell phone number, my personal email is on that page. Call me, text me, email me. I really want to hear from you. I know it's a crazy move. I absolutely deal with a lot of spam all day, but it's worth it because every once in a while when a customer actually calls, it's really nice to be able to talk to you directly. I can answer all your questions. I'd be more than happy to. You will talk to me every single time. Um, so I, I would check that out. Also, if you're interested in the history of our models or how we run our development process, check out Origins. That's our, our development page. And we've got a pretty good rundown of, uh, the different chef racks that there have been and how they were made and, um, how we're making it better every day. Um, chef rack.com, if you wanna hit us up on Instagram, chef Rack. Um, I also man the Instagram page, so, um, but really get in touch. Ask me any questions you have. Um, I'm a big believer in fit, not in being salesy. So, uh, I won't try to talk to you into anything. I can just answer your questions and talk to you about, uh, your needs. The one man army of chef rack, Josh SB, the balls on this guy to have his own personal number on the websites. It's reckless to say the least. Love it, Josh. I appreciate your time, man. Thanks for being on the big locals podcast. I truly appreciate your time here, man. Thanks Ian. I really appreciate it. Thank you everybody for listening.